Talk:Aspect/Archive 1
Speculation about the powers of Heroes of Life okay, so, i was just thinking... listed on this page, under the potential powers for the Life aspect, we've got "Longevity, able to extend lifespans (?, theorised based on the Condesce's abilities)". these made a lot of sense to me at first, but thinking more, i'm 99% sure that they're false. the thing is, these powers are based upon what we've seen on the Condesce's abilities. however, after seeing the kids' scratch universe and seeing that their ancestor counterparts have different mythological roles leads me to believe that all of the trolls' ancestor counterparts would'' also have different mythological roles. therefore, fef's powers as a Witch of Life have nothing to do with the Condesce's. this is mostly aimed at the "extension of lifespans" part, considering that i'm pretty sure it's canon that the higher a troll's blood colour, the longer they live. if it's not, do forgive me, as it's 3am. but i'm sure there was something about Marquise using the cue ball to see something about the Summoner and being all OMG HE ISN'T BORN FOR YEARS AND YEARS LOLOL and i'm not even sure if they ended up meeting or something but wow i'm rambling okay my point here is that i'm pretty sure neither of these powers are related to the Life aspect. if i'm just missing something massive, make sure you let me know! xoxo 11:36, February 19, 2012 (UTC) -The Expatriate/Executor showed Void powers. The Condesce's ability to extend the Helmsman's lifespan probably has nothing to do with blood. -Janaro- :ah, right you are! i knew i was missing something. thank you, Janaro! xoxo : 11:36, February 19, 2012 (UTC) The Pairing of Aspects So, I'm thinking about the whole active/passive pairing thing with classes. As such, I started thinking about pairing up aspects as well. Not in an active/passive way, just generally, either by way of opposites or similarities. I wrote some stuff down, and the idea seemed to make at least a little sense. There are a few pairings that come across as odd, but that's what speculation is for, right? ;) * Time/Space (historically paired together) * Heart/Mind (same as above; can also be considered opposites - emotion/logic; both symbols are stylized versions of things found in the human body (typically depicted shape of a heart for Heart, and a stylized synapse for Mind) * Hope/Doom (opposites) * Light/Void (opposites; if taking void as darkness) * Breath/Life (very similar symbols; similar meanings) * Blood/Rage (honestly only paired because these were the remaining aspects; it's possible the link could be that rage ''leads to blood, but that could just be me seeing what I want to see.) This is probably really unnecessary but I have a boner for links and sets and the like, so enjoy that. xoxo 11:33, February 19, 2012 (UTC) :I've been thinking along the same lines, but with some differences, mostly around how two aspects can be seen as basically the same thing: **Time/Space : Obvious. The two together form Paradox Space. **Heart/Mind: I think they collectively represent the soul. Heart is emotion, memory, likes/dislikes; basically, what you are. Mind would be your reasoning, your intentions, what you do, which is why Terezi could sense the consequences of that. **Light/Doom: Good fortune and misfortune. Both related to luck. Alternatively, Light is luck, while Doom could refer to unavoidable fate. In other words, What is set in stone and what isn't, both representing future events. **Hope/Rage: Good and bad desires. **Blood/Breath: Apart from the way the two interact to bring oxygen to the body's cells, there's little to see here, really. Mostly because we know jack shit about what Blood actually means. **Life/Void: Given that Life seems to relate to healing, and Void is about hiding, I suppose you could say these are both protective powers. : 00:02, March 9, 2012 (UTC) ::I did this: ::Time-Space ::Heart-Mind ::Light-Void ::Hope-Rage ::Blood-Breath ::Life-Doom :: 16:50, October 30, 2014 (UTC) Connections It seems that trolls with the same position on the hemospectrum have the same aspect. Meenah and Feferi Peixes, who are both tyrian purple, are both heroes of life. Aranea and Vriska Serket, whose blood is cerulean, share the aspect of light. It also appears that three of the kids have aspects that correspond with the classical element associated with the zodiac signs of characters in certain rungs of the hemospectrum. Scorpio, a water sign, seems to be connected with Light; Rose Lalonde's classical element is water, and she is also a hero of light. Dave Strider's associated classical element is fire, which is the classical element associated with the sign Aries: the sign of Aradia Megido, his fellow hero of time. Jade Harley's classical element is Earth, which is also connected to Kanaya Maryam's sign, Virgo. Additionally, Jade and Dave have similar text colours to Kanaya and Aradia, respectively, which may also be seem as evidence of this connection. 05:35, April 10, 2012 (UTC)possiblysomecarrots :Yeah there have been huge discussions about the trolls and their ancestors having the same roles, the introduction of the pre-scratch versions of the Ancestors has have confirmed that and half disproved that. As for the Kanaya/Jade connection all of that was on Mythological roles page before the Class and Aspect pages were split off but it seems some of that has been lost in the split. As for the Vriska/Rose connection and the Dave/Aradia connection I can't recall it being specifically noted but it may have been. The Light6 06:00, April 10, 2012 (UTC) The Kanaya/Jade connection is notable, as they both have similar tasks within the game (restarting life). Aradia and Vriska, the trolls who share Dave and Rose's aspects, are never called upon to use The Tumor in Green Sun related shenanigans. While this can be attributed to the differences between the sessions, John and Tavros's actions within the game have few ties, other than Vriska's influence over both of them. Additionally, their text colours are not the same. This could mean that we are making a mountain of a molehill, so to speak, or that Tavros and John are of such different character that there is no need for an emphasized connection. It should also be noted the lack of similarity between the text colours of the alpha kids to those of the beta trolls with the same aspect. While this could be just the effect of their being in different universes, that is contradicted by the similar text colours of alpha and beta trolls with the same aspect. 01:12, April 18, 2012 (UTC)possiblysomecarrots. :You are comparing apples and oranges when comparing the kids/troll connections with the pre-scratch/post-scratch connections. One thing both you posts kinda hint at is that you haven't realised that Aranea is Vriska's "ancestor" and Meenah is Feferi's "ancestor". Trolls share blood colours with their ancestors and trolls text colours are the same as their blood colours (with the obvious exception of Karkat, UU and uu). Likewise the troll players and their ancestors share their aspect along with their blood colours. Comparing Vriska/Aranea to Vriska/Rose or Feferi/Meenah to Feferi/Jane is the wrong way to go about it for certain features. Also why would Aradia and Vriska ever be called upon to use the Tumor? There was only ever one Tumor and it was in the kids' session. The Light6 01:39, April 18, 2012 (UTC) Speculation Okay, going to make my case here, the last few are not significantly more speculative. Look at Breath, it says "John can do this, Tavros did a thing we don't understand, hey maybe it's versatile like Light". I would say Hope, based on observations of Eridan, is actually fractionally more well-established than Breath is, because we know how he uses it with his class. We don't understand Breath yet, because our main specimen is a class we don't yet know anything about. The least speculative aspects are Light and Time; we don't know much for sure about Space because Jade has Bec's powers too. Everything else is very speculative, and will remain so until either we have explicit exposition (hello UU), or we amass a useful body of observations of players of the same aspect but different classes – something which is only really true of Light so far. Most of all, though, it is a cardinal wiki sin to use a level 1 heading in an article The distinction between the speculation section and the normal section is that we have had some sort of exposition on the ones listed outside of the speculation section. Be it that we have seen the aspect in use or that we have had exposition on the matter from UU. The ones in "speculation" have never been seen in use, not confirmed at least. Eridian might have used hope powers, but the fact that Scratch implies he got said powers from the Angels of his land implies that it could be something else, just like Rose most certainly did not use her light powers when using black magic. And we also never had any exposition on them from UU or anything. Using a level 1 heading should be avoidable easy enough really, but there should still be an indication that the later aspects are more speculative than the others. Also the ones outside of the speculation area have become increasingly speculative because people kept adding stuff after that distinction had been made.bitterLime 13:43, June 4, 2012 (UTC) :Basically I don't see why we need the distinction. The amount of speculation present on the page – for all of them, not just the last few – is I think acceptable, and it's reasonably clearly indicated what is fact and what is speculation. So there's no real need to separate them :I suppose we don't need it as long as the speculation is clearly marked as such (which it already is in most, if not all cases here). It's just that those in the speculation section consist pretty much out of nothing but speculation, while the others at least have some confirmed info in it.bitterLime 15:49, June 4, 2012 (UTC) More Speculative Stuff http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspect_weaver What do we think, coincidence or meaningful? Arlo James Barnes 05:08, July 20, 2012 (UTC) :How? I do not understand anything of the article. 16:54, October 30, 2014 (UTC) Trueblood I've seen all the interpretations of what Blood could be, and you've all eaten all the red herrings and shat silly theories, one of which is the relationship karkat tends to (or tries to) bond with others is his blood power, this is NOT some sort of "bloodpact" power, shit is so corny it might roll in aniiimuus but not HS; anyhow this is only a tendency KK has developed over the insane amount of equally corny movies he has seen. The abilities of the bearer of Blood however extend to a much more cosmic way: think of reallity as a current (alpha or otherwise), the Blood aspect utilizes it's flow for it's porpuse, and we've been pointed out this by Aranea herself, comparing the timelines as actual circulatory systems. Then it's easy to think over how Karkats fuck ups produced many Aradias and ultimately led to the creation of Bec Noir (A1's cancer) thus weaponizing the flow of reality; and how his ancestor was capable of witnessing what happened what lied beyond space/time (the scratch). Now with that pointed out (again) I leave and hope this doesn't get ereased from this wiki (again). I will probably go rant on John's actual aspect but that's it for now. 08:55, August 31, 2012 (UTC) Hope and Doom theories The paragraphs I have just added are I think excellent examples of good speculation, which is acceptable for inclusion on the page. People are welcome to disagree and discuss the matter, naturally. There is actually a lot of development of both theories (and I mean a lot), rather more than the summaries I've placed on the article. So if anyone queries the logic of the two theories, I would like to direct them to read this and this, which are where I got the theories from Aspect Duality Thought I might share this . Maybe we can add it to the page? AnimeApprentice (talk) 06:12, October 25, 2012 (UTC) :There are many theories about aspect pairings, I've even seen diagrams which connect all 12 aspects together in a geometric arrangement. That being said, the connection between certain aspects can definitely stand to be strengthened on the page, but I think we need to be careful not to go overboard on speculation. - The Light6 (talk) 07:55, October 25, 2012 (UTC) :So far the only ones we can really be sure of are Space/Time (which seem to be a requirement for any session, considering the two-player version has them, and the only one that doesn't is expecting them to arrive anyway), Life/Doom (confirmed by Calliope), and possibly Heart/Mind (which just makes sense). Light/Void is about as far as I'm willing to speculate, as the remaining four could have multiple combinations.Taneth (talk) 06:12, December 9, 2012 (UTC) Okay I sorted stuff by aspect duality as far as we can guess. Time/Space and light/void are pretty much confirmed in canon? I think life and doom was too, but can't find it anymore. Beyond that I think we can put mind/heart simply because it seems too good a fit to be otherwise. Rage/Hope makes sense to me due to being able to inspire/motivate people once through positive and once through negative emotions. That leaves blood and breath, not really sure about that, but it makes kinda sense due to the karkat and john duality and the possibility of direction vs unity, and blood carrying oxygen. Are we happy with that order? I am aware that doom/hope is also a strong contender, but if life/doom was confirmed in the comic that kicks that option out. 00:28, December 23, 2012 (UTC) :http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=006413 - "a hero of life and a hero of doom have aspects as different as can be" :But you put Hope and Rage together which is what byb speculates to be a pairing. They also be thought of as opposite states of mind, to put it simply. - The Light6 (talk) 00:48, December 23, 2012 (UTC) I feel ambivalent about having started up this conversation again. Personally I go by how the aspects were paired/released on the what pumpkin store. They're paired the same way with both types of hoodies too. However, I admit that Calliope's statement, and the recent juxtaposition of Light and Void, discounts many of these. Light/Breath doesn't even make sense, come to think of it. It just shows up in a lot of canon crushes. All that being said, my personal opinions: *Space/Time (obviously) *Heart/Mind (hard to debate this one, though I have seen heart/blood, but what does that leave mind with?) *Hope/Doom (Sollux and Eridan, Cronus and Mituna, plus they seem to represent different outlooks: positive and negative) *Blood/Rage (Mostly because of Karkat and Gamzee. Come to think of it, honestly I'll probably change these later) *Light/Void (as per recent updates) *Breath/Life is what I'm left with. Makes me uneasy though. While they're not entirely an odd match, it seems that opposites are more of a theme than similar asects. I'll have to revise this list. I also found a chart somewhere that was really good, (and though I think it counteracts a lot of my pairings here) it gives great reasons for the pairings and I'll post it here when I find it. For now though, maybe it should be sorted by how they appear on the WhatPumpkin website, just for simplicity's sake and to settle disputes? I'd like to point out again that I don't even agree with some of the pairings there. 01:06, December 23, 2012 (UTC) Well that didn't take very long at all! Found that post, and actually it seems to agree with what's being said here, that's pretty awesome! *Physical Existence: Space(Fabric)/Time(Progression) *Knowing and Perceiving: Light(Information)/Void(Mystery) *The Individual's Impact: Mind(Choice)/Heart(Soul) *Paths, Drive, Passion: Breath(Direction)/Blood(Unity) *Faith in Possibility: Rage(Resignation)/Hope(Belief) *Energy To Influence: Doom(Pessismism)/Life(Optimism) So there we have it. It even almost makes sense radially, but I had to put some thought into it and it's hard to verbalize. 01:17, December 23, 2012 (UTC) I'm not convinced that the pairings of Breath/Blood and Mind/Heart are the only legitimate pairs these four Aspects can take. You could also have it go Breath/Mind and Blood/Heart, for reasons I'll enumerate: *You can use Breath to speak what's on your Mind, but sometimes you need to think before you speak (Action in Progress vs. Decision to Act). John seems to have no problem taking action on a whim or taking cues from others' advice without thinking it through, while Terezi hesitates and requires some kind of decision-making process to act (the coin-flip, personal feelings, etc.) I suppose Tavros, Latula, and Rufioh also make good case studies here, but I don't have the time to analyze what little we've seen of them. *Blood pumps through the Heart but also keeps the Heart beating (the History of an Idea vs. the Integral/Core Concept of an Idea). Karkat always refers to what has come before (he is very concerned with heritage, which Blood would be), even going so far as to argue with his past and future selves via Trollian, and he is a film buff, soaking up as much of recorded (theatrical) history as possible whenever he gets the chance. Dirk on the other hand was able to completely resist the Trickster effect (you could say he stuck to his core ideals despite the psychological effects of the Mode), and according to his own words, he splinters but doesn't break. As I'm short on time, I'll try to get back to this later and see how my interpretations of this Aspect pair hold up with Kankri, Nepeta and Meulin. If I recall correctly, though, my guess should be pretty spot-on. I'd also like to note that the metaphorical senses of an Aspect are what all of our pairing attempts seem to focus on (when we move beyond character interactions/relationships). A little further investigation into how each Aspect is related to its Greek or Latin root/related words, or mythology in which those words are used (Pneuma is Greek for Breath, and ties into Gnosticism neatly) would seem to provide more hints at possible applications of each Aspect. A Tumblr post I saw awhile ago attempted this, I'll try and dig it up. 17:07, May 18, 2013 (UTC) ::Last poster here, decided to get myself a Wikia account so I could upload photos, only to learn that I can't. So I'm using dropbox instead, to share my thoughts on pairings. If someone who can do so wants to upload it for me, that'd be nice. Image (Sorry for the awful MSPaint graphics there...) tachyonTrajectory (talk) 18:00, May 18, 2013 (UTC) :::Except you're mixing symbol and background colors, not to mention Space's two colors are black and white, and Life is green and tan (not sure where you got a cyan from), plus some colors (though I'm only noticing Hope) are a bit off. 01:39, May 19, 2013 (UTC) :::I used the colors from the diagram that was posted before mine - color picker sampling precision may have been a bit low; if my computer weren't busted right now I'd be using Photoshop zoomed in to 1600%. When I have a bit more time (I'm in the last week of school right now) I'll go back and get the colors right. Aside from the color choices, though, any opinions on what I had to say? tachyonTrajectory (talk) 01:52, May 19, 2013 (UTC) I'll have to get back to it, I'm a bit tired to be analyzing right now. Maybe I was going a bit far with that (and your colors probably do match the other chart), but my main point there was that Space, being hueless either way, wouldn't fit into that chart really. PS we do have a color template, I'll try to link to it in the morning if nobody else has by then (I'm on mobile and have lost the link). 06:02, May 19, 2013 (UTC) Storing this here for now; I went ahead and identified the hex codes used for the colors in the charts. SPACE 4AC925 DOOM 004B1A MIND 008282 LIFE 00D5F2 BREATH 0715CD VOID 000056 RAGE 2B0057 HEART 6F0038 BLOOD A10000 TIME E00707 LIGHT F2A400 HOPE CDCD00 I'll be revising this in a moment after I compare these to the hex codes in the template. tachyonTrajectory (talk) 18:03, May 25, 2013 (UTC) Oh right dang, here's the template if you hadn't found it already, sorry for forgetting. 18:14, May 25, 2013 (UTC) This here is my revised theory-chart using that information, with my commentary added to it. As before, feel free to upload this image. Also, thanks for the palette reference Aepokk! Just to clarify: when I said I arranged the Aspect colors by HSB, I never said the values for hue couldn't be 0 or 100 (see Space/Doom); the organization of the wheel I built constitutes a (probably random) cycle between Hue, Saturation, and Brightness, not a linear progression within each of them simultaneously. I haven't analyzed things at that level of granularity yet, so I'm not entirely clear on how deep the pattern runs. The stuff that is visibly apparent in the image I uploaded is logical to me, though. Interestingly, you could technically remove Hope, Space, and Doom, and still have the color cycling continue smoothly. tachyonTrajectory (talk) 20:16, May 25, 2013 (UTC) It would seem this discussion has reason to spill out from under this topic, I advise inspecting the Claims of Canoninity (or perhaps it should be Canonity?) section at this point. Also, I have revised the Chart again. tachyonTrajectory (talk) 23:24, May 26, 2013 (UTC) Color Schemes Adding those color palettes to the page was a great step, but I think we need to include the shoe color too. Because if I'm not mistaken, that is also consistent for god tiers. 21:44, November 4, 2012 (UTC) I'm not entirely sure how that would work, since heroes of light have different shoe colors, and potentially some other discrepancies. But I don't know. Unless you mean what seems to be the "default shoe color", which I guess works? Maybe? But we really don't know how the whole shoe color thing even works. If there are "default colors"(which there probably are), or if they just depend, or what. Also since this is a section, I figured I'd point out that I think the terciary colors for the Blood and Hope palettes are inaccurate. Simply because GT Karkat and Eridan have been shown to not... have bright white or red pants to their outfits. Sorry to derail, but I figured I'd just throw that out there since it's related. Majora787 (talk) 23:58, November 4, 2012 (UTC) I think having palettes is a great idea in theory...but not so much in practise, because I don't think we are ready for it. For example Meenah's pants are the same colour as her hood, while Vriska's pants and hood have a distinctiv difference in colours...despite them both being thieves. The hood being the same colour as the pants/skirt is also true for Feferi, Jade and Eridan...But Feferi's sleeves have a different colour from her shirt, while jade's sleeves are the same colour as her shirt.Again both share the same class...do you see where this is going? The colour schemes don't seem to be absolute or clear cut. But yeah that aside the hope colour scheme is definetly wrong, Eridan's and Chronus pants are yellow, not white. Blood is arguably accurate because Kankri does indeed have brightish red pants, but Karkat has dull brown ones...here we go again. Not to mention that witches actually get another colour for the stripes on their socks. 14:49, November 5, 2012 (UTC) I think there's a simple solution to this: Have a color palette for all aspects, as we do now, but without the labels such as "hood color" or "pants color" etc; the only colors that should be labeled are the symbol color and shirt color, as those would (apparently) be the only colors that are consistent across all classes. 16:19, November 7, 2012 (UTC) Okay I removed the tags right now as you proposed. And I also took the time to double check all colour schemes. I edited some a little bit where the colours were off a tiney bit (probably because that happens to them in some panels). There, however, are a few colour schemes that are just all over the place. Those are most notably blood and life. The colours in those schemes change pretty drastically in almost each appearance they have (Will post comparision some time soon). Smaller offenders are hope, who just does not have a fourth colour at all (no big problem I guess we'll just leave the last one out for now or put the third one twice), and time... due to the ever changing colour of dave's sleeves (they vary from the colour of his symbol to the colour of his hood...and a medium shade inbetween), but that can be ignored really because it's still a shade from the colour scheme being used most of the time, just a different one at different times. 22:07, November 7, 2012 (UTC) I'm going to place these here until we resolved the issues they have. File:Colorscheme_Rage.png|Only issue: additional darker shade of aspect symbol used for lining of cod-piece. Comparable to issue with the witch sock stripes File:Colorscheme_Life.png|tertiary colour different in different panels, additional darker shade of aspect symbol used on socks of witch. My proposals on dealing with it: *Dark shades of the aspect symbol being used (witches socks, bards cod piece): ignore them unless we ever see this darkr shade of the symbol for other aspects as well. *Hope: just leave the secondary colour doubled until we get more shots of hope heroes and might get a tertiary colour *Rage: If we ignore the darker symbol shades in general this one is good to go. *Life: I'd opt for the darker tertiary shade...just my feeling though, we should wait for more evidence I guess. (light tertiary shade was seen on Feferi's sleeves, Dark tertiary shade was seen on feastings's meenah sprite. *Blood: welp...just take whatever I guess. Until we have more evidence. 21:43, November 8, 2012 (UTC) I think the "darker aspect shade" should be counted as a different color, honestly. Because I was under the impression that Aspect referred to only the color of the actual symbol on the shirt. I think Rage should be ready to add soon. 05:46, November 9, 2012 (UTC) Well yeah, you are right. But especially with the witch of life you can see that the socks are the same colour as the symbol colour, but they have additional dark stripes. So are you also in favour of just ignoring those kind of shades for now? Or should I add it as another colour? I don't really want to make the pallets even bigger. Then again I guess we could just make the colour squares of the pallets smaller, they are kinda big. Also I rewatched "roxy: sleep walk" and realized that you see a close up of Karkats leg and cape, imo the coser up we see something the more reliable, so I guess I'll take the cape and pants colour from there, and since Karkat appears to have his shirt in the same colour as his pants we'd end up in a similar siutuation as with the hope colour scheme, with one colour being doubled. We could ofcourse opt to leave life and blood of the page for now, until we get better shots, but I think we should just put the most reasonable guess on which colours are accurate. 14:58, November 9, 2012 (UTC) Yeah I think we could just leave the "darker Aspect shade" in the palettes as they are now, it makes sense really. We should just put a note somewhere as to the meaning of it so people know. And I'm all for trying to use our best guesses as to the colors based on close-ups, for now anyway. Hopefully we'll eventually get to see all the god tiers in classic sprite form, and we should definitely go by those colors. Hell, he might even release an official Class/Aspect chart displaying all the possible outfits at some point (but it seems unlikely). On the note of Karkat, we should definitely use the sprite as it appears in Roxy Sleepwalk. Obviously it's not reliable for the symbol color, but we could definitely use it for the shirt, pants, and cape colors. 18:13, November 9, 2012 (UTC) I did something to the rage colour scheme, think that would work? Ad yeah I hope we get to see some more god tier people in sprite form, because that seems most reliable. 13:14, November 10, 2012 (UTC) Hope and blood are back up, with one colour showing up twice in each colour scheme, until we get a better look at heroes of that aspect. 16:27, November 11, 2012 (UTC) Yes, I think adding the star and the note there is an excellent way to handle it. 15:16, November 26, 2012 (UTC) Alright, as of the updates we have new shoe colors: orange for Hope, grey with a pink lining for Life, black for Void, and green for Heart. 03:39, February 9, 2013 (UTC) :So I'm not really sure which colors to use for some of the schemes. Gamzee's sprite, for example, presents more than four colors. Perhaps we could have the organized standard of the shirt and symbol, and then have the rest as a lineup of unlabeled colors, all the ones used on god tier sprites? 22:08, September 30, 2013 (UTC) Light and Void I'm not sure if I believe Calliope. Vriska, another light player, lived near Equius, another void player, and his power was superior. But maybe the fact that Rose is a god tier and Roxy is not means that Rose really does overpower her? 02:42, December 21, 2012 (UTC) :I think it also has to deal with their classes. Rogue and Seer are both passive classes with Rogue basically stealing it before sharing it out, so Roxy would be sharing the Void into her surroundings. Rose as a Seer is supposed to share her knowledge, and Light basically is knowledge. While a Seer does that through actions, the metaphysical implications of her role basically mean she is a beacon, and given, as you said, Rose's god tier status, I wouldn't be surprised if Roxy is incapable of voiding her out. As for Vriska and Equius, Heir is commonly assumed to be passive, even if it isn't, just looking at John he is usually surrounded by breeze, so Equius would be surrounded by Void. Vriska however was active and stole Light, so Light went into her, rather than away from her. Also Vriska's dealing with Light was more the luck based component rather than the information based component that Rose deals with. - The Light6 (talk) 02:55, December 21, 2012 (UTC) :Also consider that Vriska wasn't concealed by Equius' Void; her Cue Ball was. Otherwise Doc Scratch would have likely had issues communicating with her. Taneth (talk) 03:48, December 21, 2012 (UTC) :Void seems to only black out visual information (Calliope could cheer Jane through the void, as you may recall - and I notice neither Void players nor those nearby seem to have trouble using computers to chat or play the game, except for when Roxy gets near devices specifically made by SkaiaNet), which would make sense if Void is the absence of Light. Shadows, likewise, are cancelled out by shining Light on them, so a Seer of Light basically has a flashlight to look anywhere into a void, if they are already looking into it. 16:31, May 18, 2013 (UTC) Blood? There is just too much stuff in the Blood section of the article. I think it needs to be trimmed down a little, or summarized. AnimeApprentice (talk) 02:23, December 25, 2012 (UTC) Light, Hope, Doom, and Rage I think it makes more sense for Doom to be the antithesis of LIGHT, rather than Hope. Rage seems to be more the antithesis of Hope. --Edit-- Wait, crud, I just remembered Void... AUGH, THIS IS CONFUSING. :( TwoRefined (talk) 17:03, April 27, 2013 (UTC) :Death, destruction, sacrifice vs. information and luck? Also we DO have Rage and Hope listed as antitheses. 17:20, April 27, 2013 (UTC) :I assume your statement about forgetting Void that you realised your error? But just in case... :Light/Void - Confirmed by Calliope and backed by various in-story examples. :Doom/Life - Calliope statement yet again, they make the best fit for each other, however in-story examples are lacking as we haven't seen a clear demonstration of Doom powers, only implied. :Hope/Rage, yes, no one disagrees with you there as Aepokk pointed out. - The Light6 (talk) 18:14, April 27, 2013 (UTC) Claims of Canoninity Okay, so the page now mentions "canonical" pairings of aspects, however, the only confirmed opposites presented that I know of are Light and Void by Calliope, with all the others just being heavily implied. Do we remove the canoninity claim, is there somewhere in the story that does in fact make these officially canon, or do we assume the implied pairings are correct and remove the appropriate misfit speculations throughout the page, such as life-breath and hope-doom? 18:56, May 26, 2013 (UTC) :Well it is worth noting that Space and Time in Homestuck as quite obviously representative of those things here in real life, which we know as connected e.g. Space-time, and that's without pointing to the various other in-universe things which point to them having the same connection as real life. :That being said; Calliope did also point out Doom/Life And as for the speculation about things like Life/Breath and Hope/Doom, this is usually based on the theory that the aspects all exist within a system. The idea of aspect pairs is that if you were to break the whole system down so that only the main connections were left, the aspects would all form pairs. So Life can still have Doom as its "ultimate" pairing, while also having a connection to Breath, Space, and any other relevant aspects. - The Light6 (talk) 10:03, May 26, 2013 (UTC) :::Alright, forgot about that conversation. Looking at it, it also seems to point class/aspect inversion as being a canonical theory. :::Should a relevant section be added to Mythological roles? 18:56, May 26, 2013 (UTC) :::I don't know if either of you have read up on the speculative posts I've been making recently up in the Aspect Duality section of this talk page - but with the exception of Calliope's more definite statements, I don't personally believe we have enough information to confirm '(beyond a reasonable doubt) whether '''ANY '''given "pair" of aspects is actually 1) an Opposites thing, or 2) more along the lines of being either Complementary, or 3) just straight up Associated Conceptually (this part being what that discussion terms Duality, and which I personally feel might be the relationship between Aspects that the mechanism of Aspect Inversion operates on). :::I think before any further claims of canonity are made, we should first attempt to understand how Aspects could theoretically be related to each other on all three levels: Opposed, Complementary, or Conceptually Associated. The latest chart I made takes a good stab at it, have a look. Chart :::NOTE: The Aspects that are right next to each other are what I'm calling Complementary, now - they work well together, or could together produce exploits or enhanced techniques (I speculate this is one of the principles exploited by the Fraymotifs). I haven't added that detail to the chart yet. :::EDIT: Also, because Aspects and Classes are not the same thing, and are the more granular components of Mythological Roles, I suggest that the subject of inverting either one should remain on their own respective pages. After all, a player's Aspect might be capable of inversion independently from their Class, and vice versa, and we're not even sure if the flip-flop is binary or operates on a scale/grid/whatever with multiple points along the way. :::p.s., I'm going to update my chart now so that it reflects the statements I have just made. I will ask respectfully for others to please refrain from leaping into the deep end before I clear the water. :::tachyonTrajectory (talk) 22:51, May 26, 2013 (UTC) :::The Edit is done, here is the new Chart. Feel free to speculate wildly/offer contradictory opinions! tachyonTrajectory (talk) 23:19, May 26, 2013 (UTC) I really don't think I can't support this theory, there are just too many oddball pairings. Time and Light? Breath and Mind? Time and Mind? Space and Rage? It just doesn't make sense to me personally. In regards to technicalities, somehow you got Jade's text color instead of #ffffff for space, and Doom should be #000000. I haven't checked the other hexcodes, but the colors themselves are fine. And the other technicality I wanted to mention is that the word you're looking for is canonicity. I can't say I don't admire the effort, but he probably didn't have hues in mind when he came up with the aspects, or aspect duality (which I was reasonably sure was a canon concept? I guess I have to look it up now though), but you could try arranging the hues of the background colors and see if it works any better, though if I'm being bluntly honest I doubt it will. I think he just picked colors that made sense for the concepts. As for inversion, while I totally agree that it could and even should be a Thing, and the hints are there, it's not enough for us to put it on the page. 02:37, May 27, 2013 (UTC) :I could attempt to explain the pairings I've hypothesized, if you'd like. They're not really all that oddball, I don't think - as there does seem to be a method to Hussie's madness, on some level. I think what's required to make sense of this is just some additional speculation on ''how the Aspects relate to each other in metaphor. I'd be more than happy to elaborate, if you'd care to hear the details of my theorizing! tachyonTrajectory (talk) 20:51, May 27, 2013 (UTC) ::I would love some explanations! Hi, I recently found your "Clean Color-Cycling Arrangement" chart and I was enamored by the idea. Currently, I am working on a claspect theory based off of the ideas presented in you chart and I'm interested in hearing your own theories. ::Personally, I argue that while light and void are similar, like two sides of a coin, they are not opposite. The opposite of heads is not tails, it's "you haven't flipped yet." Light and Time are opposed because they are true opposites. Time is a continuum where light is a snapshot. Just the same, void is opposed to hope. Void is a lack while hope is an abundance. Space and Time are usually thought about together, but they are hardly mutually exclusive. Rather, where space is ordered and composed, rage is passionate and violent. ::My Tumblr name is FalconAt. If you have a tumblr account, I would love to collaborate with you. Otherwise, I'll just keep coming back here for discussion. --Falcon At (talk) 05:05, May 28, 2013 (UTC) ::@FalconAt: I'd be happy to create a table showing all the correlations I came up with - I actually have an (outdated) excel spreadsheet I'd love to port to this wiki, but I don't know how to code it yet. And while I think my wheel makes for an elegantly simple graphical representation of my theory, it obviously requires a table to be thoroughly explained. This would take up a lot of space, and so I'm not really sure where to put it on this site. I'd assume my own user sandbox, but I'm not even sure if I have one (Aepokk, care to clarify this for me?) or if others could collaborate with me there. At any rate, I don't really want to clutter this Talk page up with my shipping wall explanations of the 12 Adjacent, 6 Opposition, and 6 Duality pairings I've come up with for the Aspects, and that's not even accounting for the (60 or so, I think?) other interactions not directly predicted by color, proximity, and metaphorical association (like for example Doom and Rage, I have to admit I don't know how those two would even work together!) ::Either way, I don't have a tumblr, and I think I'd prefer to just chat people up on this wiki for now. I don't know how much collaboration is really called for on this subject anyway. I'm not opposed to it, but after I've already spent so much time on it, it seems maybe a little wasteful to spend much more time theorizing when we don't even know when Hussie will begin updating again and maybe make the whole effort moot. For now, I'll just give you the logic I used to figure ALL of these pairings out, and we can... discuss individual pairings elsewhere/later, I guess? :::'''MY LOGIC :::First, a general rule of dumb thumb I use when I try to figure out whether I'd pair two Aspects through either Duality or Opposition is: if an Aspect pairing of this sort is valid, then the logic creating this relationship will work both ways on some level - the first Aspect does X with/to the second Aspect, and the second Aspect naturally reciprocates with Y using the same basic logic. Specifically, in a Duality pair, each Aspect benefits the other through a self-sacrifice, inversion, or their absence; while in Opposition Aspects hinder, destabilize, or destroy each other. :::For all Adjacent pairings, on the other hand, the logic is that the Aspects' colors are similar in hue, saturation, and brightness on the artist's palette, often being "one-off" variations of one another - and likewise, the conceptual relationship between them could be explained in the same way. If you were to place them on the same Fraymotif together, the two Aspects would work together to perform a common task with more potency than either could achieve with the same amount of effort alone (but they could probably still achieve it alone at a "higher level"). I'll admit this is where my logic gets a little fuzzier, but it still sounds like something Hussie would invent if he was going for a fairly symmetrical system, especially given his background in working with color. :::As of yet, I can't account for any other sorts of pairings, such as Doom/Rage, Life/Void, etc. but there's probably no reason they couldn't share a Fraymotif together, and it would still be interesting to consider. Anyway, that's how I think Hussie has ordered the Aspects - and it makes logical sense to me for him to have done it this way. ::At any rate I like your reasoning, especially about why Space and Rage would be Opposing Aspects - my logic on that pair was actually that Rage has a tendency to destroy things, while Space attempts to stay ordered in the face of Rage being destructive. Whereas the pairing of Space and Time as a Duality, if you ask a Cosmologist, makes sense because Time eventually leads Space to a sort of static order, while Space provides a medium in which Time creates a fluid order. As for Light and Time being in close proximity on the wheel (not quite a Duality or an Opposition), the speed of light represents the fastest known speed that anything can travel in our current reality. This obviously makes sense as a reliable Fraymotif pairing since a Time player and a Light player could theoretically accelerate something to the speed of light, or could slow down the speed at which light travels (which according to what I know of physics would make light solid/tangible! Cool stuff.) Meanwhile, I stuck Blood next to Time for a similar reason - Blood carries information forward through Time, and provides a link in the future to the past. Actually, now that I think about it, Adjacent Aspect pairs give us something to base a working definition of each unexplained Aspect on, since the relationship between two Adjacent aspects is a definitional one, and most unexplained Aspects share space with one or two Aspects we already have a fairly clear definition of. ::For the record, I won't blame anybody if they want to move this conversation to the Aspect Duality section - I'm just too lazy to do it myself, right now. tachyonTrajectory (talk) 20:19, June 1, 2013 (UTC) :::Your theory seems to be very complex. The article I'm currently penning is mostly about how each aspect on the wheel is opposed to its nemesis. I even made a shiny little flow chart demonstrating the color wheel model. From what I've been theorizing so far, the aspects could be divided quite neatly between Calliope-esque and Caliborn-like mentalities. I plan to use it in my article, which will be posted eventually. Currently, apart from revision and proofreading, the only section I feel is lacking would be the dichotomy shared between Doom and Heart. My working theory is that Heart is an aspect that flies in the face of the rules, while Doom works within the rules, sort of like a "revolution vs. reform" debate. However, I don't know how Nepeta and Mewlin fit in that idea. Dirk and the Disciple do, but the lolcats do not. There is a community of Homestuck theorists on Tumblr, though none seem to share your ideas. I think it would be a great place to post your theories. I think its a shame you don't have a blog for us to read. Falcon At (talk) 21:34, June 3, 2013 (UTC) :::I was sort of going for something that would allow me to accurately predict the natures of Aspects, so I needed the complexity so I'd have something to look at to establish a sensible pattern underlying their nature. Anyway, as for the Opposition of Heart/Doom, here's my speculation: to make sense of this pairing you have to interpret Heart as courage (to “have Heart” is to have courage), and interpret Doom (or fear/fate if you prefer) as something that could either be destabilized or hindered by courage – and on the flip side of things, as something that could also serve to destabilize or hinder courage. This reading of things seems to make sense, imho. :::If you see a similarity between how I'm reading this and how you seem to have interpreted Hope/Void, I can dispel that notion now; Heart/Doom disregard the odds, either succeeding by persistence/audacity through a narrow margin (Heart) or by neutralizing the odds preemptively (Doom), while Hope/Void conjures victory through blind faith in something that shouldn't logically exist (Hope) or by relying upon that which has been lost or absent from existence (Void). In other words, Heart/Doom sort of empowers capable players to utilize their existing means for success, while Hope/Void makes having no apparent means of success at all totally irrelevant through a technical deus ex machina. :::Interestingly, Dirk's signature glasses being a nod to Gurren Lagann makes the Heart explanation all the more sensible; his odds of successfully accomplishing anything should have been 0, but he narrowly succeeded at helping all his friends enter the session (by "doing the impossible" - dying, and living through it). Nepeta was a little more passive but courageously leapt from the vents to avenge Equius (mind you, she died, but given that her entire session resulted in a general lack of success, there's no accounting for her having been an effective Heart player, and it's not as if her actions had no repercussions - and her Mythological Role was at any rate far different from Dirk's). Same goes for Meulin, and of course it takes some amount of courage (or rather, dreaming big) to be that persistent at shipping (on that line of thinking, Meulin was sort of a... motivational lolcat). Sollux... well I'd rather not talk about Sollux, but my raisining should be apparent by now. :::EDIT: Note that this Opposition theory only clarifies the metaphorical definitions of Heart/Doom and Hope/Void as they relate to each other. To get a more complete conceptual picture, I would look at their Dualities and their Adjacent Aspect pairs. Also, I'm going to start using <> for Duality, <3< for Opposition, and o8< for Adjacents because this is Aspect Shipping apparently.tachyonTrajectory (talk) 14:24, June 6, 2013 (UTC) ::::I have reciently published my thoughts on Tumblr ( falconat.tumblr.com ) ::::My version of claspect theory is becoming increasingly anti-canon (as opposed to noncanon.) As such, I have included a disclaimer that my thoughts should be taken as an alternate interpretation. Should you disagree with my assessments or fear your theory might be stigmatized by my disclaimer, I can include another disclaimer stating that my theories are independent of yours. --Falcon At (talk) 17:41, June 7, 2013 (UTC) ::::The major reason I don't give myself a prominent place in the discussion within the tumblr fan community is because I prefer to remain an impersonal commentator, and make speculative suggestions based on what I know of "canon". I mostly try to make suggestions that no-one has made yet, rather than criticize others' theories (which would be both a futile pursuit and a personal fault in my opinion, especially when the theories don't totally ignore canon). In fact, I don't think anyone here would much mind if you want to direct your readers to this wiki - including myself, as my interest in helping to maintain this wiki has nothing to do with attempting to amass credulity for my own theories. (Rather, I find that the pursuit of credulity-in-speculation is less valuable than the pursuit of accurate documentation and the thoughtful observation of others' theories.) ::::That said, I can see several places where our theories, if formalized, would diverge (non sequitur: you might want to correct the spelling of "relevance" on your chart). For starters, within my own theorizing, I take exception to attempting to distill the concepts of individual Aspects into single words; I believe they're deliberately broadly-defined (as far as I know, it's canon that Light deals with both visible light and the notion of all sorts of luck, as Rose and Vriska seem to have proven) and could be better understood with the addition of more concepts to their definition. At any rate there are too many entanglements in the form of potential relationships between Aspects for me to outright say that any specific pairing is the only one possible on every level. ::::By the same token, I think that Aspects are meant to be open to interpretation regardless. Hussie, in blog posts I have read, has outright stated that the system is deliberately very flexible (and, I think, to a fault). Classes, meanwhile, seem to restrict the functionality of each Aspect, in addition to manifesting unique abilities for players through the combination. There are a lot of assumptions to be made, discarded, and analyzed, so I see no reason to make bold assertions with absolute conviction just yet (plus, because it would be preemptive, that is just the sort of thing a troll would do). ::::I do appreciate the disclaimer you've already made, just as I should probably make a further disclaimer that my own chart isn't finalized yet, and may never be: I've approximated a solution of enough of the riddle to my own satisfaction that I have more interest in new hypotheses than retreading ground I've already covered. In addition, I like to tackle these kinds of projects all at once, when I finally amass enough new information that I can't resist scratching the itch of revision any longer. Even so, if you require any further explanation of my theories, don't hesitate to ask. tachyonTrajectory (talk) 20:09, June 7, 2013 (UTC) Unresolved Questions about Roxy's Void Powers So I couldn't help but notice the notes on this revision by Aepokk: (→‎Void: >Implying that every object that can exist does exist at some random location in the furthest ring. pretty unlikely) I was actually not trying to imply any such thing, but rather that she might have the capability to conjure things from the Furthest Ring, due to its dubious ties to the Void Aspect. I was half awake at the time I made that edit, but I realize now that this is a better place for behind-the-scenes speculation, so: any comments? tachyonTrajectory (talk) 18:09, June 17, 2013 (UTC) :Like if it is there? Hm, I suppose so. I thought you were saying every instance of conjuring is actually pulling something from the Furthest Ring, my bad. 22:15, June 17, 2013 (UTC) Aspect order? What we have in terms of pairs are essentially Space/Time, Life/Doom, Hope/Rage, Heart/Mind, Breath/Blood, and Light/Void. The idea has often floated around the fandom, however, that aspects can be connected to more than one other one. There are seemingly obvious pairs like Hope/Doom and Space/Void, so we try to line them up in the Title Table to best reflect that. As it currently stands, we have Time/Space Void/Light Mind/Heart Rage/Hope Doom/Life Blood/Breath. But I was wondering if sticking Blood/Breath between Heart and Rage might make more sense? And the way that loops around, it leaves Life/Time, which kinda makes sense in that Time is so heavily associated with death. Certainly makes more sense than Breath/Time. My overall question, to clarify, is whether we should change the order on this page and on the table. Because in the past I've just rudely done so without asking. 06:50, July 31, 2013 (UTC) :Well, ultimately, until we have canon evidence in support of the aspect "wheel", it makes little difference what order they're in. On the one hand, that means it's entirely fine to change the order. On the other, it means there's not much point changing the order. I'd err on the side of leaving it alone for now Time makes you a slave? Seem like all time aspected players are forced into some sort of servitude. Aradia serving the weird shadow guys, Damara serving lord English, and Dave having to tie all the loops before he decided to just abandon it all together. Lord English would have served but instead essentially rebelled against existance. The3rdplayer (talk) 19:04, December 14, 2013 (UTC) :You mean the midnight crew for Aradia? That's an interesting way of looking at what Lord English did, by the way. And I wonder if Space players exhibit a contrasting parallel to this. 19:44, December 14, 2013 (UTC) ::Not the midnight crew the one weird dark octopi guys. These things ::And thanks for the compliment. The3rdplayer (talk) 22:03, December 14, 2013 (UTC) :::Aradia never served the Horrorterrors, Rose did but she is not a Time player. - The Light6 (talk) 23:09, December 14, 2013 (UTC) ::::She sort of does or, at the very least, acts as a mediator between them and the players. But still even if she doesn't serve them she is put in charge of the dead by someone (albeit "somewhat" willingly).The3rdplayer (talk) 23:34, December 14, 2013 (UTC) :::::That's a good point, actually. I mean I'd always assumed Aradia assigned herself the position of "Handmaid of the Afterlife" due to her personal fascination with death (y'know, the archaeology and all), but I suppose it's possible the Horrorterrors had something to do with it. She is a Derse dreamer, after all. I'd have to look back at the things she said about serving the ghosts and managing the dream bubbles. 06:57, December 15, 2013 (UTC) The Thing I can't tell wether the aspect decides your thing or if its based on your aspect/class pairing. The reason I bring this up is because of the heroes of life. While we saw Jane Crocker come back with her lifey thing (albeit in dream form), after being stabbed by Jack, Feferi simply died and never ressurected after taking a science beam to the chest. The2ndplayer (talk) 21:14, January 7, 2014 (UTC) :Maybe she didn't want it. ::not only didn't she do a lifey thing when she got killed by the science beam, but she didn't do a lifey thing when jack killed her...(or did she?) then we have Janes real self who died on Derse, we didn't see if she did a lifey thing or not because of the session black out... but I assume she didn't. Whohoohuwhu (talk) 00:13, October 31, 2014 (UTC)